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76 thoughts on “E19 – Thunder from Down Under”
Great show guys, I enjoyed it as usual.
My impressions on KZ: very entertaining, interesting and challenging encounter cards, sadly the player cards are more a mixed bag to me and I’m not overly thrilled by them.
Remarks on the show: ZM – yes, he is boring. We played with a tri-sphere ZM deck that aims on 2-cost-cards that runs very smoothly. The worst part is that it bores the other player to death: usually you play 1 or 2 cards, then it’s the ZM-player’s turn and he grinds out tons of cards. Yawn! (remember this is a co-op game, not “one plays, the other watches” game)
Dreadful Gap: This killed us nearly once as it forces itself as the active location with a 10+ token requirement and dangerously clogging up all other locations in the staging area.
Sudden Pitfall: reminds me of the game “Aztec Challenge”! (I’m old too). It killed Dain twice and killed our Gloin too. Not so nice…
Boromir: Is my favourite Hero as well. Funny quest story: While playing Flight from Moria he grabbed the abandoned tools and hammered our way through the last stage in one turn. Awesome super-steroid construction worker!
Ya know, it’s funny to think that not once did I ever consider how ridiculous Boromir would be with the Abandoned Tools. In my games I would typically have [Dwarf hero] + Erebor Record Keeper drill the way out, but Boromir would certainly be a simple solution!
Another Ziggy combo is Beekeeper.. you mentioned it as a card to throw in just for cost count to hit 4 calls. Still there is a strong combo that runs off Beekeeper. You run Ziggy, collect your 15 resources and then you can cast using stand and fight Beekeeper even 3 times in one turn when you start at zero resources. So you can basically empty your pool and drop 3 dmg to every card in the staging area. This combined with teh fact that ziggy allows you to run 2 or even 1 heroes to have super low threat makes Beekeeper very powerful.
As for Torny play.. I tend to not agree here. Luck is always a factor in CCG games.. no matter what a deck builder might want to believe, there is a reason that MTG has different world champions EVERY year. This is why you play a “Set” of games not just one.
IF, and it is a big if, torny play comes, all they need to do is make it that you have to play the quest at least 3 times. This would iron out some of the unlucky draws. It would also mean that the players will have to design constant decks rather than high risk low low susses rate decks.
Also, unless you have a judge at every table the event can not happen. As it is a co-op game.. no one is checking and calling a judge if there is a error like in a duel game were you are competing. That combined with the fact that 99% of people do not know the rules.. means that any event needs to have heavy rule enforcement.
Your completely wrong about the belt.. it is extremely powerful.. especially when you combine it with ziggy, and it is the key to single hero decks that run at a constant under 10 threat for the entire game and getting super low scores… and just for the record.. you play UC in teh planning phase and then the quest phase is a NEW phase and the belt effetc is over and you can now cast test of will.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say here. If I use Narvi’s Belt to give a hero a spirit Icon during the planning phase then loses it at the end of the phase. Therefore I can’t use it to play A Test of Will during questing. How is that wrong? I liked the Idea of having one card that gave me the option splash other cards but dislike that I can only play those other sphere cards during one phase only during a game turn. I usually only run one off sphere maybe two at most. I tried it and have gone back to using songs.
I tend to agree with you, Jared. The “until the end of the phase” restriction is much more limiting than one initially assumes. I think the Belt can still be quite useful, but it seems like you really must plan around that limitation. I think you almost have to be playing a four-sphere deck (otherwise, why not just use Songs?). Furthermore, you have to be very careful about including events, since you’ll generally want to use the Belt during the planning phase.
Boored’s point about using it with one- or two-hero decks is
interesting. I think the Belt makes a bit more sense in that type of build, since sphere flexibility would seemingly be even more important with fewer heroes.
Would just like to point out you can not play in vassal and obay the table talk rules correctly as there are no deck functions for scry’n
I was hoping someone else would comment so I wouldn’t have to ask… can you explain your comment? What is “scry’n?”
Scrying in game terms is the ability to peek at some cards on the top of a deck. You can do that, in essence, with the Vassal module… just drag out the cards, look at them, and put them back on top of the deck in reverse order.
I seem to remember somewhere that tournaments will be 2 player, and there will be a new quest (or combination of encounter sets) that will be presented upon arrival. Think of the first players at gencon, when they sat down at the first play of Massing at Osgiliath; I’m thinking tournaments will be something similar in terms of difficulty and presentation.
I remember in your last episode, you all mentioned how you were all rather apathetic to the feel of the Khazad-dum player cards since none of you were dwarf fans in particular. As a dwarf fan, I’m actually pretty disappointed with the turnout, mostly due to the lack of dwarves. Technically, there were dwarves, but zigil miner couldve been any race to do what it does, veteran feels pretty wimpy for 4 cost, and erebor record keeper is just a money pit. Probably my biggest disappointment is with the leadership sphere offerings: Durin’s song is alright, Ever onward is just short of worthless, and Narvi’s belt disappoints me the more I try to play it; and to top it off, the leadership ally drought continues.
Anyway, now that the vassal module is out, I look forward to maybe playing with some of you guys in the near future, and showing you the power of a Gloin deck.
Great show, guys!
K-D is awesome, end of story. Great quests, great player cards. Exceeded my expectations, especially with regard to some of the more thematic mechanics (Goblin “swarming” shadow effects, Cave Torch, searching for exits in Flight from Moria, etc.).
Thank you for your sanity regarding Zigil Miner. If and when the mythical tournament scene actually materializes, we can revisit the question of a ban/errata/restriction. Until then, use it (or don’t) however you please. If you enjoy questing with 53 willpower, than bully for you. The game is for fun.
At one point, you brought up the worst shadow effects in the game, and I think Sudden Pitfall has to be at or near the top of that list. It just nukes the defender, meaning you lose that character AND have to take an undefended attack (often from a Goblin Swordsman or Spearman). We’re talking potentially two dead heroes from one attack. I understand that it can be canceled, but it’s as close to a “you lose” shadow effect as there is in the game. It’s WAY worse as a shadow card than as a treachery. Thankfully, there’s only one in the encounter deck…
Good stuff, looking forward to the next cast.
I think I like the OCTGN LotR card game version a bit more than the Vassal one.
I mean besides the point that the cards aren’t limited as in the Vassal version and there are newer sets like Khazad Dum it also feels a bit more shiny and user friendly.
It does have some problems too though. For example you can’t join a game that is running and you can’t save.
I didn’t even know this existed. I suspect that this is not a great idea, however, as Tragic the Blathering noted in the FFG forums that his own Lackey plugin to play the game online doesn’t feature cards unless they’ve been available for 6 months IRL, per the request of FFG.
The creator of the Vassal plugin is respecting this same request, which is why the card selection is still limited.
Am I completely naive on this? Does OCTGN gave an exception of some sort?
Nope OCTGN of course doesn’t have an exception to that. For example the Game of Thrones plugin on there is following pretty much the same 6 months rule.
What I’m assuming is that the guy who did the OCTGN LotR plugin just well didn’t really think that it could be an issue.
Anyway he doesn’t have all cards as well though. Only the Mirkwood cycle, Osgiliath and now Khazad Dum. As well as two player made quests which I haven’t tried yet.
By the way I posted a link to the programme and the plugin all the way down the comments of the last podcast.
And I also named another problem the programme seems to have there. That the server appears to be a bit instable sometimes.
I don’t know if any of us caught those. Once the initial flurry of comments dies down on WordPress, I think we look more toward the next episode. I’ll try and remind Brandon that we should talk about this on the next ep!
Yeah, I do prefer using OCTGN, but it has one major drawback, that you can’t save a game. I also find some of the controls easier to use in Vassal, for example just arrowing up/down to change stats instead of remembering which F key does what. And I’m just used to using Vassal for other things, so I like to have that version to play with sometimes. In any case, I originally made that module way back before Lackey or OCTGN was an option, so I figured I’d share it for anyone who may want to use it, for whatever it’s worth.
The latest version, with a few tweaks/updates and several fan scenarios, is here: http://www.vassalengine.org/mediawiki/images/9/91/LOTR_LCG_Vassal.vmod
And also visit this thread for a pictorial description of how to use the module: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/756340/vassal-mod-available
I generally enjoy your podcast, but I am pretty close to unsubscribing for a number of reasons:
1) Please clean up the adult “humor” and language. If the podcast doesn’t become family friendly I’m out;
2) Not only do you need to clean up the adult humor, but stop repeating the same jokes over and over (“Boromir”, “Playing by yourself”, etc.); and
3) The podcast is too long for what its trying to do. The above two points are part of the problem. The juvenile and repetitive attempts at humor make the whole show drag.
At the end of the day, maybe I’m not your target audience. If so, that’s fine. But since you’d probably broaden your appeal if you upped the maturity level a bit.
Thanks for your feedback. We do the show for fun, and have fun doing it, that is key for us. We love the fact that we have built a listenership and don’t want to lose anyone. That being said, I am afraid it is as family friendly as it is going to get ever. Thanks for listening and I hope you continue to do so!
“1) Please clean up the adult “humor” and language. If the podcast doesn’t become family friendly I’m out;”
Hahaha I’ve only listened to like two episodes now but I can already tell that is not going to work as long as Brian is attending.
Same to 2) with similar reasons.
Hey now! Don’t single me out! The other guys make just as many dirty jokes as I do! I just tend to laugh louder at them than anybody else… 🙂
sorry about the language.
we do try to take care not to curse outright, and rarely mess up this rule. the immaturity and bad jokes will continue, though, i’m afraid.
we are not funny and are immature. 2 things that won’t be changing easily.
in all seriousness, though, we do hope you give us a chance to win you over, and keep listening. if our brand (son of bain) of humour isn’t your cup of tea, well, hopefully you can look (or listen) past that and keep tuning in to hear mitch’s expertise on the game. that guy knows his stuff.
thanks for the feedback. constructive criticism always welcome.
“If our brand (son of bain) of humour isn’t your cup of tea…”
Boo. BOOOO! 😀
I think some of your horrifically unfunny puns have started to infiltrate the FotC cast. On their “excursion” into Moria, they came across Signs of Conflict, prompting one of the hosts to remark, “I feel doomed.”
Can’t speak for the entire community, but I enjoy it. Keep slathering on that cheese, guys.
Also, what Boromir joke are you referring to? I NEVER joke about Boromir!
Most of the comments are of the innuendo type, so I don’t really have a problem with that, though typically it’s all more of a groan than a laugh. Brandon in particular can be very witty, though.
I thought I would mind the length, but I do feel like there is a lot of good content throughout, so I’m okay with it. I can’t listen to the other podcast because those guys really ramble and get way off-topic for long stretches talking about what they did the past week, and they don’t sound very excited to be doing what they’re doing and it just isn’t compelling to follow, IMO. I’d much rather listen to these guys (COTR) for 2 hours than 10 minutes of that.
My only real complaint, which I’ve mentioned elsewhere already, is for better consistency of the recorded voices. I typically listen when I drive, and it can be hard to distinguish some of the voices. I realize they are sharing a microphone and there is some limitation there, but Brendan and Andrew should get closer to their mic source so there’s less room ambience, and Andrew should speak up in general. A lot of times, he’s just too quiet. And then the quality of Jared’s voice through his microphone was really harsh. I realize it’s the nature of indie podcasts so I’m happy to shrug it off, and it’s not a big deal, regardless, but any improvements in that regard will be much appreciated.
Otherwise, keep up the great work!
Can I just say that I am sick to death of your toilet humour too! The way you pick on that charming new Australian guy who has joined the podcast. Whats with the cheesey pizza jokes (get it cheesey).
I think you should let him have more creative input.
Tune in next week for Jared’s solo episode! Go Jared 1000%!
I will still inject an outtake involving Mitch’s cat.
I’ve devised a new drinking game. Listen to the show and every time Brandon says the word “quite”, take a shot. For example when he says: quite good, quite fun, quite interesting, quite devastating, quite exciting, etc…
and every time i pick on mitch, finish your drink!
I’m just waiting for him to add “quite unplayable” to his repertoire of terms. You have no idea how happy that would make me.
That is quite funny! I didn’t even realize I said it that much!
(Crap, I messed the name up, please remove the post above.)
You still haven’t registered email@example.com, have you… I’m disapoointed.
I haven’t listened to this episode yet but will do so this week I hope.
I really love your jokes and the general atmosphere as well as your insight into the game and the cards.
Don’t change anything!
That’s actually our super secret account where we give out adventure packs by the dozens!
“Scrying in game terms is the ability to peek at some cards on the top of a deck. You can do that, in essence, with the Vassal module… just drag out the cards, look at them, and put them back on top of the deck in reverse order.”
Yeah but that invalidates the rules of the game. Scry’n is a part of the table talk set of rules and is a 100% independent decision. Drawing the cards onto the table were everyone can see and comment is an illegal move.
So don’t look if you’re not the one drawing the cards. Simple as that. It’s not ideal, but it’s a full co-op game, anyway, so if you see something you shouldn’t have, assume that the player who drew the card(s) would have given you enough of an indication of what they saw for you to figure it out. And really, the Vassal module was intended mainly for solo play, but I’ll see about adding a private hand window to the next release for drawing scry’d cards to.
That problem should be solved by a window for hand cards only the players can see or by setting the cards to be hidden so the other players can only see the back side of the card unless you right click and press “show”.
That’s how it already is for the encounter deck. I didn’t want to make separate windows for hands, as that would be a pain for solo play. Ease of use would definitely trump that, especially for a rule like that which is not often a factor and not a huge deal in a fully co-op game, anyway. But I’ll probably add the option for hand windows for the next update.
Why would a window for hand cards be a pain for solo play?
I mean if you play solo then what forces you to use that window to store your hand cards?
And with the covered cards I meant that only one player can see what the card actually looks like and the other can only see the back of the card unless it’s uncovered by the player who owns it.
So yeah like the encounter cards but with them only be hidden to the other player.
If you’ve seen the Warhammer: Invasion Vassal module, they have the cards hidden to the other player if you place them outside of the board.
Hm yeah actually you could do it like they did in that module and hide the cards for the other player as long as you place them on the far left or far right of the board. Then there wouldn’t be a need for a hand window.
I’ll check out that module and see if I can adapt that. But what I meant by solo play is playing solo controlling 2 decks, which is what I like to do sometimes. And even aside from that, the less windows you have to click in and out of when you play in Vassal, the better, so that’s why I have it with everything out on the main board.
While we’re on the subject of Vassal updates, any chance for seeing all of the core cards in triplicate?
Scott, the triple core cards are already in the current version.
I still don’t understand why you think a window would be annoying for solo play.
I mean even if there is one and even if you play with 2 decks, what would force you to use that window? You can still just place your hand cards on the game board without using the window.
And if you want to see the Warhammer: Invasion module, here’s the file:
LackeyCCG can play as many full decks as you like for solo. You can even play 2 player with 4 decks. Has rule correct scry’n, turn based auto save, correct shadow card placements, one button click save at any time, and more. While vassal and otgn are OK, you are compromising the game. For an exact game experience that conforms to the rules of the game, LackeyCCG is the only option.
I guess I can understand why you think the Vassal version isn’t conform to the rules because it doesn’t have that scryning right now but what’s the problem of the OCTGN version?
In what way is it not conform to the rules of the game?
How does it compromise the game?
Also it has 10 or so custom quests,new one added each month. Pre-configured one button click set ups of the encounter deck, has regular updates.. I could go on
How hard is Lackey to learn? I’ve been playing with the vassal module and it is pretty sweet. I already know vassal so I’ve naturally gravitated towards that version….
Lackey is great all-around, but it is kind of tricky to learn the ins and outs of it. There is a lengthy video tutorial on YouTube that explains most of it, and that was able to help get me up to speed enough to play a game. But then a week later when I wanted to play again, it was confusing again, and I didn’t feel like re-watching the video, so I said screw it, I’ll just use Vassal. I think OCTGN is a lot more user-friendly than Lackey, but the lack of being able to save a game is a big detriment. Anyway, it’s good that there are now a few different options available to play the game.
I usually play with Lackey and don’t find it hard to grasp, but I don’t have a comparison to other programs.
Anyway, I can teach people on the fence on how to use it, if there is need.
Vassal and OTGN are fine apps. I obviously like lackeyccg the best.. but it is a game.. just have fun and use what you prefer. Lackey dose look a bit daunting to new players, though it also has the most features to allow “correct” rule observation. Still.. I wish all the best to vassal and otgn plugin makers. My suggestion is to just try them all and pick w.e you and your friends like the most.
After reading this thread I’ll make some new video tutorials, these ones will be short and easy to navigate.. so best used for reference, I hope this will aid people a bit better.
Love the show guys.. CoTR has been great (been listening from the “beta” posted on CardGameDB) Keep up the good work and hope to see you guys at GenCon!
True say. As long as you are playing it’s all good!
Tragic we are so beyond amped about GenCon, we look forward to meeting and gaming with everyone! To those on the fence, if you are a gamer you MUST go to GenCon! Good gaming, good partying!
Be sure to let us know when you finish those videos. We’ll post some links. Lackey looks like a really solid program; I just can’t convince myself to learn it when I open up the program and see how many options there are.
FWIW, I updated the Vassal module to include discreet player hand windows, and also an encounter deck window. So that should work now for 2 player games, as far as scrying goes. Also, scenarios load all relevant encounters at once. And DD, you’re right, the hand window is not really a big inconvenience for solo play. I like that everything on the main map reflects what’s in play.
Here’s the file: http://www.vassalengine.org/mediawiki/images/9/91/LOTR_LCG_Vassal.vmod
Well what I meant was just 2 windows were the players can store their hand cards. The decks could have stayed on the main board, so that the players draw their cards from the board into their hand windows.
But I guess that wouldn’t do much difference hm.
Oh, except that you can’t look at the discard pile of the other players. I think in the rules it said you’re allowed to look at them?
And I guess the encounter deck could have stayed on the main board too?
By the way is there another LotR LTC Vassal module? I saw that being played and went online on your module but then I noticed it was a different version with different name.
Oh by the way if you saw the Warhammer: Invasion module, they also have a nicer way of saving decks I think. There you can just save and load the decks directly so you don’t have to save the entire game to do that. That means that both players can load their decks individually and not just one of them.
Not sure how hard it is to copy that though.
And did you mean to strech the LotR map in the background by the way?
Yeah I know I talk too much. 🙂
The Warhammer module is no longer available. Removed by FFG long ago, apparently.
I guess you didn’t see that I gave you the link to it? haha
Some little polish community still plays it even though I guess it’s not really allowed.
Heh, yeah I forgot you had given me the link for that. Anyway, I checked it out and I will definitely incorporate that type of Save/Load deck function into the next update. That’s definitely a better way to do it. Thanks!
The latest update (same link) includes the deck save/load function. That’s definitely a better way to do that. I can’t believe I never noticed that as an option, but I never made (or played) a CCG/deck-building module before. Anyway, thanks for the tip on that.
I actually prefer it now with the separate windows for the player hands and encounter deck. Considering you usually only interact with the encounter deck during one phase of a turn, I like that it’s out of the way and the main map is reserved only for what’s in play.
Hey guys. Just wanted to say good episode. I know you did not talk about my challenge to you but I figured that was going to wait until after you discuss each quest. I am still loving the KD cards and how useful they are to my meta.
As for Narvi’s Belt – I did miss the term “until the end of the phase” but I don’t believe it is unplayable. As long as you keep that in mind you can still use it effectively. You use it in the planning phase and make sure that you keep original heroes with resources for tricks. In Jared’s case, it sounds like he should have just used all the resources from the Belted Dwarf to play the ally and save his resources on a different hero.
I agree that the first KD quest was difficult. The first time my meta faced it we were not prepared for the delay in fighting. By the time we broke though East Gate and entered First Hall, there were too many goblins and we were slowly overwhelmed. However after a try or three and adjusting our decks we were able to beat the quest.
Anyway, looking forward for the next episode. Happy questing
I think longbeard orc-slayer deserves a honourable mention, or? Yeah I know a lil’ bit pricy but together with sneak attack, and hooked up with MemDain, Thalin and with advanced progress of the game fits quite well for KD… However great episode again gents, thank you very much.
The belt is not unplayable in anyway.. in fact it is a MUST play.. enabling the ziggy support deck to function correctly. Not using it is just a bonehead move and reducing the power of teh deck by 10 fold. The card needs to be cast by the partner, as you do not want the 2 drops to water down teh resource collection, that is the key.
Well we shall just have to agree to disagree. In my opinion and experience its limitation of only working until the end of the phase has made it less useful than the songs. I would hardly call it a MUST play. There is nothing boneheaded about not playing it. Your claim that it reduces the power of the zigil miner deck ten fold is a long stretch. You assume that the only powerful version of the deck must run four spheres and high value cards, that is not the case.
Well yes. If your running a proper ziggy support deck that consists of just 5 and 6 cost cards, then the belt allows you to cast all of the cards. The ziggy deck by definition is a 4 sphere deck. Also when running 1 or 2 hero decks this card is the only real option for mana fixing.
By your definition it is four sphere and runs 5s and 6s. I prefer the 3 cost dual sphere deck for Zigil Miner. I find it more efficient.
how can it be more efficient, you are pulling less resources. The entire “point” of the ziggy deck is to make one deck a resource engine for all the other decks in the game. SO only 5-6 cost cards + tombs + stand and fight. Everything else is run by the other decks. If you run 3 cost cards in a ziggy deck you are retarding the entire effect. When you run a proper ziggy deck you can get a turn 1 2 northern trackers for example. I played a 2 player game yesterday and we have a turn 2, 2 trackers + bork., turn 3, Beon and grim resolve… So turn 3 we have a 15 dmg on the table, + 5 questing power + 2 progress tokens on terrain from the tracker + the heroes themselves and the other decks allys… game over… you can not do that with any other type of deck. You wana win solo dol goldur 100% of teh time… this is teh deck to you.
Also, if you run a deck with 1, hero, something that is becoming more and more popular, as 3 heroes is completely unnecessary, due to ziggy getting your cards on teh table so fast, giving you super low threat, better scores, and of course access to teh coming secrecy keyword.. again.. only possible with a high cost deck of ziggy.
running 3 cost cards is ok, but just as slow as a snail.
Jared is talking about running a solo player Zigil Miner deck, whereas you generally appear to be talking about running a “ziggy support deck” for use in a multiplayer environment. In the latter (going off of exactly what you described above), the deck can focus entirely on generating resources as quickly as possible and transferring them to other players, but in the former, it has to do slightly more in order to avoid failing horribly.
Jared likes to use lots of 3 cost cards because he has more than ONLY fast as possible resource generation on his mind.
Also, in your quote:
“I played a 2 player game yesterday and we have a turn 2, 2 trackers + bork., turn 3, Beon and grim resolve… So turn 3 we have a 15 dmg on the table, + 5 questing power + 2 progress tokens on terrain from the tracker + the heroes themselves and the other decks allys… game over… you can not do that with any other type of deck. You wana win solo dol goldur 100% of teh time… this is teh deck to you.”
…your first and last sentences seem rather contradictory.
The efficiency is quite simple with the three cost cards I get cards for threat reduction, cards for card draw as well as a swag of useful allies with good abilities. If i generate lots of three resources and my cards generally cost three or less then I can play lots of them.
As Mitch has pointed out this is a solo deck.
I think this discussion has dragged on far enough though so this will be my last post on the matter.
one of the most common problems with people that play this game is that they still do not understand that the deck are not separate. When you make a 2 player “deck” you make both decks that act as one, but split the cards up. Belt + songs make sphere choice irrelevant, cards costs are irrelevant. making a 3 cost ziggy deck is only because you feel that you need to make a more rounded deck, when your partners deck should be handling all that.
You gotta start designing these decks as if they were one single deck.
One of the most common problems with people that play this game is that they still do not understand that other people do not always play games in the exact same fashion as themselves (i.e., multiplayer), and that these players then proceed to make wide, sweeping generalizations and assumptions about other players and how they cannot possibly understand how to properly construct a deck, or use it to play this game appropriately and skillfully.
Earlier, you wrote that “Not using [Narvi’s Belt] is just a bonehead move and reduc[es] the power of teh deck by 10 fold. The card needs to be cast by the partner, as you do not want the 2 drops to water down teh resource collection, that is the key.”
Apart from the unnecessarily inflammatory first sentence, for someone that plays Song cards appropriately (i.e., Jared), the ADDITION of the belt is often entirely superfluous), and like you said, “you do not want the 2 drops to water down teh resource collection,” hence the desire for the belt to be played by another deck – which in his case, being an almost exclusively solo player, is not an option.
Jared mentioned his reasons both during the podcast and in these comments for not liking to play Narvi’s Belt either in supplement to, OR as a replacement to the Songs, and like he suggested earlier, how about you two (read: you), just agree to disagree? I’m almost certain that neither of you is going to change the other’s opinion on this matter, so instead of shitting up yet another message board, how about we just let this conversation die?
exactly, everyone has there own play styles, witch is why decelerations of a cards uselessness, especially one with such a power effect as mana fixing, is extremely bad form.
God you don’t get it do you. My quote was “barely playable”. You have only cited one instance where it is playable as an advantage over the song cards which to my mind would make my statement during the podcast true and hardly bad form.